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Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: My girlfriend loves Lords of Waterdeep


Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: My girlfriend loves Lords of Waterdeep

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by kislikiwi

Espinoza wrote:

kislikiwi wrote:

(and more player interaction). I play Castles of Burgundy solo quite a lot for example.

Sorry, that made me laugh.


Yeah, I know :P I don't have many friends/time to play Castles of Burgundy with, so I mostly just play the unofficial solo variant and play other games with friends. Works pretty good solo though.

I think you are right, it's the set collecting that she likes. I was thinking about Splendor also.

We already own Stone Age, but she doesn't like it that much. I'm gonna think about Raiders of the North Sea, Orleans, Bruges, Tzolk'in, Five Tribes and Ticket to Ride.

Thank you all for your responses guys!

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: why is this game so highly ranked? #29???

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by edosan

It's ranked that highly because many people rank it highly.

Corollary: ratings are irrelevant. Feel free to ignore them.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: My girlfriend loves Lords of Waterdeep

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by dhiceday

My wife love Lords of Waterdeep. The expansion is a must-have.

What she also likes very much, in the same category :
(likes means, she suggests these games for our evening games)
Troyes
Stone Ages
Kingsburg
Keyflower
Rokoko
Fresko

and she also likes Clash of Cultures :)

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: My girlfriend loves Lords of Waterdeep

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by ayejae

dhiceday wrote:

My wife love Lords of Waterdeep. The expansion is a must-have.

What she also likes very much, in the same category :
(likes means, she suggests these games for our evening games)
Troyes
Stone Ages
Kingsburg
Keyflower
Rokoko
Fresko

and she also likes Clash of Cultures :)


Place workers much?

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: Rules:: Re: diplomatic mission to suzail + "whenever you take a ______ quest" effects

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by beaverpapa

beaverpapa wrote:

jepmn wrote:

Interesting point. But I think it's not quite as cut and dried as that. There is a plot quest that for every time you complete a quest it lets you take one cube back into your tavern used for that quest. I am almost certain that this plot quest triggers when you use the suzail plot quest to complete a quest directly from Cliffwatch inn.

I'll have to try to maneuver the app into this situation so I can see what it does.

You do indeed get adventurers when completing quests in Cliffwatch via Suzail.

Like you mentioned, it has the wording of "take" in the reward description.

Some plot quests *do* stack. Not all of them.

I rescind this comment; the quest does not have the "take" terminology...only allows you to complete them at the Inn, so you cannot trigger the "recruiting" Plot Quests.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

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by beaverpapa

downeymb wrote:

Technically it's a quest, I guess?

I don't know, I can't duplicate it to find out, since I've already completed the achievement.

I recommend playing with the Undermountain expansion and doing 4 large quests to get the victory.

It ended up popping up after all...and yep, it was a win with Larissa :cool:

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

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by beaverpapa

So, another one showed up last night.

My gal and I played a long game and she had completed the Obtain Builders' Plans plot quest that allowed her to use a building in the Builders' Hall as if she had purchased it.

She had 5 corruption, 4 Intrigue Cards, and was looking to use her Plot Quest to enter the Poisoned Quill:

Return (1) Corruption: Play (1) Intrigue card

The game wouldn't allow her to enter this building in the Hall but allowed her to enter the other two, spots that she didn't care much for.

What gives?

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: Rules:: Re: diplomatic mission to suzail + "whenever you take a ______ quest" effects

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by jepmn

Is this theory or what the app did when you tried this?

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: Variants:: Re: Special Abilities for the Factions

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by MrGeek

Very cool idea. I might have to try this. Some might be little more powerful for some more then others, but it seems pretty fair.

Drive Thru Review - Top 100 Games of All Time #71-80

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

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by beaverpapa

jepmn wrote:

Was this on original assignment or on reassignment of the agent? I wonder if this bug is coming into play (assuming it was never fixed):
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1228588/obtain-builders-pla...

Though it'd be weird if it let her try the other two spots. I agree that this sounds buggy, though.

It was her opening move of the round, during the assignment phase. (for whatever it's worth, I am in the camp that reassignment is still an assignment in terms of this game)

Yep, since she was able to enter the other two, we found it odd she couldn't enter the Poisoned Quill, despite meeting the conditions to enter it.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

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by beaverpapa

Another bug?

(looking like it's Skullport and Corruption related?)

Expose Corruption: give each opponent that has more corruption tokens than you a corruption token from the corruption track.

I had 2, my galpal had 2, and I was still able to give her a corruption token.

She didn't have more than I did...and this happened again in a subsequent game, as well.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: Variants:: Re: Minor but helpful rule tweak! Use crescent coin as 4 coin value instead of 5

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by willsargent

I thought about this after Rahdo recommended it, but so many of my games use 1,5,10 denominations I found it easier to stick with what the rules said.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: Variants:: Re: Simple solo variant

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by willsargent

Ikim wrote:

FluidSpace wrote:

Ok so that makes sense. But i still subtract what it would cost him to complete the quest.

So the big skullduggery quest is 25 points, but cost 10 adventures. Does he get all 25 points or only 15?


No subtraction needed: he gets 25 points plus any additional points for extra coins and or adventurers he would gain for completing the quest.


I think many people are forgetting to deduct the cost of the quest from the reward for Pino. For example, this quest should nett Pino only 15 points, because he must 'pay' like any playing using adventurers (or in his case, using points). Yes, Pino gets any extra bonus points added to this total, but this system means some of the quests will only nett him a few points as opposed to the mega high points some gamers have been allowing him. This system with a D10 and selecting quests that match Pino's lord card I have found the best way to play, too.

Thanks to the OP and also to the poster who suggested a D10 - great work all round.

Board Games, Party of Two

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by Matthew Gravelyn

Many of you have probably read my article on solo board games. A similar intro can be made for 2-player games: why is that a thing? For the uninitiated, a low player count doesn't mean a lack of gameplay or mechanics. In fact, there are some hefty 2-player games that can take hours to play through. Rich, complex systems and beautiful components are not the sole domain of the 4-6 player games. You can get your hardcore game on with the assistance of only one additional human (not included in the box).

As is my tradition, I don't just research a topic; I run a survey, interview designers, and find out about a whole community of folks that love playing 2-player games. There is something for everyone in today's article: lots of data, lists of top 2-player games, advice on how to create your own 2-player game, and how to get that game in front of interested publisher. Enough with the flowery intro, let's get to it!

Survey Results

First and foremost, a huge "thank you" to everyone who participated in this survey. We shattered the previous record of 239 survey results, this time getting 540 responses! While this meant a little more work doing the individual games portions (which another "thank you" to everyone who used full names and commas as asked, it was a big help!) I am that much more confident that these results are a good reflection of the overall community.

Additionally, I tweaked a couple questions, added others, and removed some as well. Not only do I appreciate the feedback, but any comments or concerns you may have on the survey itself is super helpful in refining the next one. I don't plan to stop doing surveys any time soon, so I want to make them the best they can be. Alright, let's get to the data!



I started off by getting a feel for how many games people play in a week and what portion of that is 2-player games. The distribution of games per week didn't appear interesting at first, but I thought I'd look at the ratio of 2-player games for each person and see what that looked like. On average, for people who took this survey, 2-player games made up 70% of all the games they played. That seemed really high, and can be explained by a couple things. First, the survey may have attracted 2-player game enthusiasts, thus skewing the results. Another, although not really provable with my data, is that 2-player games are a lot more popular than I first thought.

Whatever the explanation for this ratio, I feel confident that this survey is at least representative of the 2-player gaming community, if not a good picture of gamers overall.



I bucketed 2-player games into two main categories: games designed for two players and games that allow for two players. I further segmented by cooperative and competitive games. I found that most gamers surveyed prefer competitive over cooperative games but also lean towards games that allow for two players instead of ones that limit the player count. I could go back-and-forth on the competitive vs. cooperative piece for days, but I think it's pretty self-explanatory that players prefer games that are more flexible, allowing for two players when needed, but scaling to larger groups as well.



Perhaps a less "scientific" question, but I was interested in why people choose 2-player games. I am drawn to them because I'm usually very busy with my family and work and may only get a brief window with one other person to play a game. The respondents seemed to agree, 68% of which said they play 2-player games primarily because they don't have enough players for larger games. 51% said they play because they like the mechanics unique to 2-player games.



Although it makes perfect sense that significant others would be the far-and-away leader in this question, I still wasn't expecting it. My wife isn't a big gamer, so my go-to for 2-player games is usually my younger brother. What was interesting to me is that 27% of people said they play 2-player games with their regular gaming group. This seemed like a difficult task to me; if there is a group of friends who like board games, they'd tend to play larger games together. Andrew Brooks wrote about a similar experience trying to get gamers at his FLGS to try out 2-player games with him and was met with much resistance. Even with a big-name like Uwe Rosenberg on the boxes, it was still difficult to get people in a group setting to sit down for a 2-player game.



The question on "weight" came out, not surprisingly, even across the spectrum. I guess I was expecting 2-player games to lean a bit more towards light and medium-light but, as mentioned before, there are some really dense 2-player games on the market today. Gamers are still looking for a complex game even if they only have two players.



This was one of the new questions I tried out for this survey. I did get some feedback that mechanics did not influence their decision, all the way to this being a useless and uninteresting question. While it doesn't really tell us much, especially without a baseline comparison to non-2-player games, it does help reinforce the fact that heavier game mechanics like worker placement are still desirable in a 2-player setting.

The real star of the survey, and where the bulk of my time analyzing went, was the write-in games section. Again, I had 540 surveys filled out which led to over 850 unique games being listed. This task was mitigated by everyone's amazing use of standardized names and commas for separation. This made breaking out individual games titles a breeze! Again, I broke these games into two categories: games designed for two players and games that allow for two players.



Jaipur, which is very high on my list of games to buy, got the most raw votes for games people enjoyed (101). Following behind that is Hive (84 votes) and Android: Netrunner (81). Another notable game for me is Lost Cities, which got 60 enjoyable votes. This was one of the first modern board games I bought and what really hooked me to the hobby. I was really happy to see it on this list.

On the other side, again, there were far fewer games listed as not enjoyable, making the top list not so interesting. It was interesting to see Android: Netrunner at the top of this list as well as #3 on the enjoyable list. We'll get to comparing enjoyability in a bit, but first, on to the games that allow for two players.



Topping the chart is Carcassonne with 130 votes, followed by Pandemic (110 votes) and Dominion (94 votes). I've never considered playing Dominion with only two players, but apparently many of you have. Conversely, we have 7 Wonders (19 votes) and Love Letter (19 votes) at the top of the not enjoyable chart. This is odd to me; I've always thought Love Letter played pretty well with only two players. I'm curious if most people don't like it as a 2-player game, or if people tend not to like it in general.

One benefit of having so many game votes tallied (over 4,800 of them!) is that I can be more confident in the ratings. I do this by limiting games in the top enjoyability charts to having at least 25 votes for the individual categories and at least 50 for the overall.



Another game I haven't checked out, but am very interested in, is Patchwork, which tops the enjoyability chart for games designed for two players at 100%! Coming in tied, but with one fewer votes, is Morels. Rounding out the top three is Twilight Struggle with 98% enjoyability. We also see Jaipur relatively high on this list (96%), which also topped the raw votes in this category.



Tied for the most enjoyable games that allow for two players are Eldritch Horror, Suburbia, and Castles of Burgundy with 97% enjoyability. Carcassonne followed up with 96% and then Splendor with 95%. I was pleased to see many of the games my brother or I own on here, like Takenoko, Lords of Waterdeep, and Ticket to Ride. We've never tried these games 2-player before, but I am tempted to after seeing this list.



To make it to the overall enjoyability list games needed to have at least 50 votes. These are, according to the gamers I surveyed, the best of the best 2-player game experiences available. So, if you're looking for such a game, check out Twilight Struggle (98%), Star Realms (96%), and Race for the Galaxy (95%), as well as the top games mentioned on the other lists.

For this article I created a BGG GeekList with the top enjoyable 2-player games. From here you can easily link to the games as well as see the BGG rating and ranking for comparison. Let me know if you found this helpful or interesting and I can make sure to add one for each new article.

Designing for Two Players: Benefits

Creating a game for two players comes with a unique set of concerns but also has some surprising benefits which make the design process a little easier. Starting with the benefits, the main difference here is, obviously, the lack of other players. When your game only involves two players you don't need to have as many mitigation rules, or rules that are only there to prevent social elements from taking over (ex. king-making, quarterbacking, run-away winners, etc.).

"[T]he easiest thing is that there isn't really any diplomacy. I suppose players could use social pressure to try and change their opponent’s behavior, a “don’t you dare or you’re sleeping on the couch” kind of thing, but that’s not a concern that should impact the design. It cleans up a lot of potential sources of trouble."
- Joshua Buergel


Another beneficial aspect to designing games for lower player counts is playtesting. Instead of needing to find a group to play, which can be challenging for a myriad of reasons, you only need to find two, or just one if you intend to play as well. This can be a lot more doable, especially on short notices. The other side of that coin is you will probably need to play more individual games to get as much unique player feedback as you would if your game supported four people at a time.

Designing for Two Players: Challenges

On the other edge of this design sword there are some challenges that come with designing a game for only two players. As mentioned previously, there is no "table" of players to balance in a 2-player game, which allows you to skip creating mitigation rules. This, however, may not be all blessing. Without a group of players, all with different personalities, to drive the emotion and presence of the game, it is on you to create the feeling of theme and tension. This requires using a combination of theme, art, and mechanics to immerse the players in the experience. Make each decision a player makes have weight and meaning, not only for mechanically winning the game but also thematically.

"I believe that a game’s atmosphere is important, and creating that is more than simply choosing a certain theme or set of mechanics. Especially in 2-player designs, where you absolutely have to deliver for both players, focus on the feelings you want to evoke and the experience you want to give them."
- Jason Kingsley


Another common pitfall in 2-player games is a feeling of back-and-forth play. This is easy to slip into, given there are only two players, so you need to take care when designing the steps of gameplay. Give the players choices and allow them to derive strategies in the mechanics. You can also allow them a choice of actions on their turn; instead of always draw then place, you could allow the player to choose between drawing two cards, placing one card, or doing some other special action. You also want to make sure countering plays is a choice, not a requirement, so you don't fall into a "move then counter" loop.

Designing 2-player Variants

Another area of 2-player game design is in taking a larger game and creating new or additional rules for playing with only two players. This is becoming more common, many games shipping with 2-player rules in the box or in an early expansion. While this definitely adds value to your game, offering one more way to play the game, it can be a sort of trap that you can fall into if you're not careful. Players will know when the 2-player version of your game is an afterthought, tacked on for marketing purposes more than it being a good game experience.

It can be hard to design both a larger and 2-player game simultaneously, so most designers look to enlist the help of another designer to work on the 2-player version, either in tandem or after the base game is complete. This can help you focus on your original game idea and allow the other designer time to focus on the 2-player version. Additionally, if you are skilled in designing 2-player games, this can be a way for you to work with other designers and get your games out there. A recent example is Stonemaier Games' Viticulture and Between Two Cities, both 2-player variants having been designed by Morten Pedersen.

A Quick Note on Getting Published

For those who plan to take the crowd-funding approach to getting your 2-player game out, make sure you are accountable to your players directly and create a game they will want to play. For those looking to take a more traditional publishing route, there are some things to keep in mind when shopping your game around. Some publishers will not even consider a 2-player only game. Others will only consider it if the game is light-weight. By no means am I suggesting you compromise your design for them, just be aware that your experience publishing a 2-player game will most likely be more difficult than any other previous experiences you've had.

"Some publishers will write the game off right away. But if that’s not their market, then don’t worry about it. Focus on the gameplay and the experience it can offer, and don’t be apologetic for making a game you want to play."
- Jason Kingsley


At the end of the day, make a strong game. If it plays well and is interesting to gamers, you should be able to find a publisher. Try looking through publisher catalogs to see which favor 2-player games, or at least have some experience with them. Not having to convince a publisher of the merits of 2-player games will save you a lot of time and hassle down the road.

Takeaways

If you're already working on a 2-player game design, or have always wanted to test out those waters, I hope this article serves as a good base for you to build on. To recap, here are the main points you should consider when creating a 2-player game:

• Social elements are downplayed: With only two people at the table, you don't have to mitigate social aspects of play as much. Don't get hung up on these rules unless your playtests suggest you should invest the time and effort.
• Playtest more often: Although easier to get a 2-player game together on the spot, you'll likely need more games than usual to get the amount of feedback necessary, twice as many games as those with four players in each game.
• Create tension: In a 2-player game, you can't rely on a group of players to create the story and atmosphere for your game. Include thematic elements, mechanics, and art to help sell your story to the players.
• Give weight to player decisions: There will likely be fewer turns or action in your 2-player game, so each one needs to carry weight. Players should never feel like they can throw away a turn or action.
• Provide opportunity for strategy: Give players options to develop a strategy and play-style. This is interesting gameplay, but also prevents a sense of "back-and-forth" which is easy to do in a 2-player game.
• Don't tack on 2-player variants: Players will know if the game is intentional or not. When necessary, try partnering with another designer to work on the full and 2-player games in tandem, but separately.

Additional Resources

If you're looking for more info on 2-player games, here are some resources for you to check out. If you have any favorite sites, articles, or podcasts about 2-player games, leave me a comment and I'll update this list.

Low Player Count: Podcast about 1- and 2-player board games. Mostly discussion with a little game review thrown in occasionally. You can also join their BGG Guild to get in on pre-show discussions.
• BGG Advanced Search: Using their search tools you can look at games that support only two players as well as games that allow for two players. Use this to find new games to try out and hopefully learn from.

"My advice for designers is always the same: play everything. Even styles of games you don’t like - it’s worth figuring out why other people like them. [Y]ou never know when you’re going to borrow a mechanic from something out-of-genre for your game."
- Joshua Buergel


About the Experts

Big thanks to designers Jason Kingsley and Joshua Buergel for taking time to email with me about their experiences designing 2-player games. Here are some of their upcoming projects to be on the look-out for:

• Jason Kingsley: co-designer of Ophir, contributing artist for Lanterns: The Harvest Festival and Dead Men Tell No Tales, currently working on a 2-player worker placement game tentatively titled Tinker Tailor, based on a children's counting rhyme. Keep an eye on Jason's twitter feed (@JasonDKingsley) for info on his upcoming releases.
• Joshua Buergel: developer at GMT Games, worked on Unhappy King Charles! and Prussia's Glory, and designer of Foresight (available on DriveThruCards.com). Currently working on Hocus, which will be coming to Kickstarter in late June, and Wiccage, a 2-player trick-taking game.

Thanks

Another article made possible by some amazing gamers who were willing to help me out with their feedback! To everyone who took the time to fill out the survey, you really make these articles happen. Thank you so much! Here is a list of some of those respondents:

AboutToHappen | Adawg85 | Airstream09 | ajwitkowski | Alex Hughes | Alfredo | Alpacasmile | Ander Exelion | Angelo Pileggi | Angurvaki | Anthony | Aogu | azraelswrd | b | boardgameduel | Brian Cable | Carl S. Christiansen | Cecily | changcox | Chris Garrett | Chris Hayashida | Christopher Lowell | clearush | Connor | Curtis Smith | Dapperghast Meowregard | David Tucker | Devin | dingbat | Disrupt19 | djErfquake | Donny Behne | Durendal | Dylan Waller | Edwin V. | Ekekekeptangyazingni | Elisyna | Emil Istrup Karlsmose | Eraelan | err0r85 | Eva Van Steenberge | fartmachiner | @Flashforwardco | Fyreborn | GammaGoblinz | Goofguy | HoodieMcTalks | @infernocloud | Jake 'Moses' Clark | Jared Sinclair | John du Bois | Jonathan Jordan | Kaleb Pomeroy | kaytydid | Keilfer | Kevin Diebold | kiefkilla | King Cummins | Kirsten & Or | L | Lauren | Lauren Schilling | longlivesquare | Matt "Windmill" Turner | mdillenbeck | Michael D. | Missy Q | MLordhughes | Moscow Superkid | munkey_ninja | Napian | Nic Lewis | Nothus | @NPCChris | Oldfoolshaggis | OneDeafMute | peter cockroach | PirateInsomniac | plosfas | @Ponzonha | poopshooz | PurpleZim | Rambr | randumtoon | Red_Bearded_Nematode | ReZips | Richard Herrera | Rlnd | Robyn Adams | Rourke Anderson | RyanPlugs | Sam | Sara Rodrigues | Sarah W | Saru | selfishreaper | Shoe | sigma83 | @slowdaygames | Sneckster | srb4887 | steebin | Tb8440 | The Recreator | The_Garlic_Dalek | ursasmar | vampiro369 | VegaDark541 | vidarino | Waldhorn | whimsypunch | Wombat Sanders | XanderMoraine | Xihc

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Bugs in iOS version

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by beaverpapa

beaverpapa wrote:

Another bug?

(looking like it's Skullport and Corruption related?)

Expose Corruption: give each opponent that has more corruption tokens than you a corruption token from the corruption track.

I had 2, my galpal had 2, and I was still able to give her a corruption token.

She didn't have more than I did...and this happened again in a subsequent game, as well.

Confirming there's an Expose Corruption bug:

Earlier today, I had 2, my opponent had 1, I still could play this Intrigue card and give him a Corruption token.

Looking like Skullport's Corruption tokens and their interaction with the game is buggy.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: My girlfriend loves Lords of Waterdeep

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by Vexidus

My wife loves Lords of Waterdeep. My other recommendations for games have been mentioned, except for Seasons. Check it out, it's nearly a guaranteed hit.

Reply: Lords of Waterdeep:: General:: Re: Considering buying this as 2p only game, please advise

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by psychopanda

I've never felt that Lords of Waterdeep is a very cutthroat game in the first place. There are times you will get blocked from a spot, but there is typically another option available. It might not be the best option, but there should be one there. Ticket to Ride on the other hand, I've found to be quite exasperating when you get blocked from a route and one mistake can cost you the game.

I like both games a lot, I just feel that Ticket to Ride is significantly more cutthroat than Waterdeep. Waterdeep surprisingly plays quite well with two players as well.
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